abstract: Anna Boozer interviewed visual artist Khalid Shatta about his artwork and its relationship to homelife over Zoom on August 22nd 2024. The following interview offers a transcript of that conversation, while smoothing over side comments and transitions.
**~~Figure 1. “The Unknown Hope (1)”, Shatta’s hometown in El-Korgal, Nuba Mountains, Sudan. (Khalid Shatta, 2011).~~**
**Boozer:** This one in the Nuba mountains with the white jalabiya
(figure 1). This is where my mom and dad were born. And I don't know how
to put it in English. You can feel the connection of home. The meaning
is always very deep. The forest is home. The trees are a soul. And they
are building what we call *rakooba* in Arabic.
**Boozer:** A thatch hut?
**Shatta:** Yes. And I really love it. The way of the motion and the
connection. And even in my painting series, *The Migration of the Soul*,
humans migrate from nature. When we migrated from nature, we became very
harsh with each other. Because we don't have the language of the
surroundings. We don't have the understanding. And I think that many
village people are more connected with nature and they know how to
define themselves with basic things. But in a way, they have a real
connection with their land with nature. And I felt that in this picture.
**Boozer:** Yes, you can see it in the way his arms cross.
**Shatta:** Yes.
**Boozer:** The connection is happening between him and the land.
**Shatta:** Yes, the connection. You feel like you really belong to this
earth.
**Boozer:** Yes, it's beautiful. I see that connection. This one (figure
2). This is the one we were talking about before, right?
**~~Figure 2. “The Unknown Hope (2)”, Damazin Market, Blue Nile, Sudan (Khalid Shatta, 2011).~~**
**Shatta:** Yes, this is the one. And on the boy's t-shirt it says "the
eagle human eye". You see it?
**Boozer:** Yes.
**Shatta:** And if you think about it, I took this photograph in 2011.
Now some of them may have three or five kids. You know how it is in my
culture. And think about how in this kind of situation they are the ones
who are killing. They are the ones who are stealing. They are the ones
who are in the war. They are everything. And even me. If I am there, I
am going to do the same thing. Because this is where I was born, this is
how I was raised. This is what is normal. Because in Norway the police
have no guns when patrolling. Just imagine if you grow up in a place
where you have gangs everywhere.
And also, it explains the trap of the history of Sudan. You know,
because we are in war for more than sixty or seventy years, and even
before that we have the British and the Egyptians, and the Turkish. In
Sudan we never had a rest just to settle. The culture of war is very
deep. The culture of war is also mixed with slavery and I think this is
still what is ruling Sudan. It doesn't matter what place in Sudan you
are located. Because especially this war reflects what Sudan is. It is
very fragile. There is no basis of identity. It is a mix of races. It is
a mix of people struggling. It is a mix of many things. But all these
things are missing one thing. We don't have institutions to hold what we
need, what we want to be as Sudanese. And I think this is one of the
things. And even the system of the army that we have is a system from
when the British colonized. And even the problem of South Sudan. They
divided it because of the lack of opportunity for education because of
the many lacks. And now South Sudan is divided too. And at that time,
they said it was Christianity that was the issue, but now what about
Khartoum?
In a way you feel there is a country, there is a land full of minerals,
full of resources, but there is no-one who belongs to it really. You can
question yourself why are we like that. Even in Europe you can find a
church that is four hundred years old or six hundred or more than that.
They have this knowledge, these buildings. You don't feel that different
from six hundred years ago. And some of those buildings are better than
now. And that shows how we are very far even in the history because
Meroitic, Kemetic, or Kushitic civilization you can be proud of that.
But maybe we don't even belong to those people. It shows the dilemma of
education, academic, of things. Because we need to accept that first. We
need to see where history leaves us. We need to see that more. Maybe
this picture for me holds those ideas. Because people think the problem
is just from the former regime. No. It is deeper. It is more than that.
**Boozer:** There are deep roots to it and the tree keeps growing,
supported by those roots.
**~~Figure 3. “The Unknown Hope (3)”, International Displaced Persons (IDPs) from Khartoum (Khalid Shatta, 2011).~~**
**Shatta:** Yes. Because even the people who are in charge now in Sudan.
They are Sudanese from our families. They came from the same
communities. So, why do we ignore that? Ah, so this picture (figure 3),
I took it in Omdurman. At that time, we were moving the South Sudanese
and people from the Nuba Mountains. This is before the dividing of South
Sudan. So, just imagine now what is happening in Sudan. People migrate.
So, this is my city.
**Boozer:** I love this one (figure 4).
**~~Figure 4. “The Unknown Hope (4)” in the El-Haj Yousif Neighborhood, Sudan (Khalid Shatta, 2011).~~**
**Shatta:** Yeah, this is really nice, you know? This guy, he's adopted.
Maybe he's a soldier now. Our neighbor was the first woman where I lived
to adopt. It was for me -- wow -- you know? Because we were living in a
poor city, in a ghetto, so for me -- wow -- that was really nice. It was
inspiring to me. And now maybe he's in high school or something.
**Boozer:** It's been thirteen years now. That's a long time in a
child's life.
**Shatta:** Yeah. I just loved his expression.
**Boozer:** Yes, his face is so sweet.
**Shatta:** Yes. This is the Fulani, the Fulani people (figure 5).
**~~Figure 5. “The Unknown Hope (5)”, Blue Nile, Sudan (Khalid Shatta, 2011).~~**
**Boozer:** Tell us about the Fulani.
**Shatta:** The Fulani, or Housa, are people who are located in many
countries in Africa. The huge Fulani community is in Nigeria. But you
find them in Sudan, in Senegal, in Chad, in Mali. Not like the Dogons.
But the Fulani are linked even with the Tuwari, Tugu, and have other
kinds of links. They really love cows like the Nuer in South Sudan. In
Sudan we know them as *Omboro*. They are very spiritual. They are Muslim
but also other things. In the Nuba Mountains we call in *kujur*, like
voodoo, but those people also have these kinds of rituals with their
cows.
**Boozer:** So, they have other traditions and spiritualism entangled
with Islam.
**Shatta:** Yes, it is mixed because they are Muslim. Yes, all over
Africa and even in Sudan where most of us are Muslim we have our roots
in other traditions. This one is in el Kargal my hometown (figure 6).
**Boozer:** She's so beautiful. Her face and the light you capture on it
is just amazing.
**Shatta:** It's really beautiful. This picture, I took it in a kitchen,
but I took it I think with candles for light and a red lamp.
**Boozer:** The lighting on it is so beautiful. Her face is so striking.
**Shatta:** Now they are in a safer place. Kassala. They got out of
Khartoum two months ago.
**Boozer:** I'm glad to hear that...but...everyone is moving. It's so
hard.
**Shatta:** Yes, just imagine how tough it was for them.
**Boozer:** Just to get out of the heart of the war.
**~~Figure 8. “The Unknown Hope (8)”, the Roseires Dam, Blue Nile at Ad Damazin, Sudan (Khalid Shatta, 2011).~~**
**Shatta:** Yes. There's one picture, I need to discuss with you, this
one (figure 8). Imagine these people. They live beside the dam on the
Blue Nile. Those people live just three meters from the dam and they
don't have access.
**Boozer:** They don't have access to the water?
**Shatta:** Yes, they don't have access to the water.
**Boozer:** That's incredible. They're so close.
**Shatta:** Yes, I love this picture. This one is part of a series. When
did I take this one? This was part of *Migration of the Soul* or *Gods
in Action*. The red drawings. Should we also look at them?
**Boozer:** Yes, let's do that! I have them here. I really like this one
(figure 9).
**~~Figure 9. “Migration of the Soul” (Khalid Shatta, 2019).~~**
**Shatta:** Yes, this one is nice.
**Boozer:** Would you like to tell us a bit about it?
**Shatta:** This one is part of *Migration of the Soul*. The point is
not the physical migration but the mental migration. And also, the way
how we feel disconnected from our own existence. For me it is also more
like how we are engaging in time together. But also, time changes and
many things can disappear with time, through time. For example, for us
as humans -- I'm just thinking, I don't know if I'm right or not -- but
we are the last creatures who live on this earth. When we arrived here,
we found everything for us, whether through evolution or whatever. We
find the trees, we find the world, we find everything. And from there we
build the human civilization. And we had the first migration and it's a
lot of knowledge that came from this small family of human beings. And
then came the first ancient peoples the first ancient civilizations. And
now we are here in, say 2000. For me, to be in 2000, wow, just imagine
that we are the product of many little, little things.
**Boozer:** Many small past actions and events?
**Shatta:** Yes. And when we look at this perspective, just wow. It's
not about how long am I going to live, but how did I become a product of
all of human evolution.
**Boozer:** Coming to this body, to this place, during this period.
**Shatta:** Yes, with these clothes, with this knowledge. You know? So,
if you can see, there are Wifi signs. So, for us, as modern peoples,
sometimes when we go to temples, or to mosques, or to church, we get
shocked by what those people in ancient times created. The beauty. But
for us even we have our own civilization. You are in New York City; I am
in Oslo. We speak through our laptops.
**Boozer:** That is its own wonder.
**Shatta:** Yes. You see it is also evolution and our time. And if we
brought someone from ancient times here, he would be -- wow -- he's
going to worship us!
**Boozer:** Yes, the technology we command is incredible.
**Shatta:** Yes. You see, he's going to worship us. It's normal! And
that's why I feel sometimes, it's like humans we have really smart and
beautiful minds to create things. But when we link our soul with belief,
we lost our power somehow. Also, there are the trees in the picture,
human trees. It's like a forest. So, for me, it's about we and them.
It's about our history and about our present.
**Boozer:** The deep history running into the present.
**Shatta:** Yes, and sometimes we forget that. That's what inspires me
too. The forgetting.
**Boozer:** I love this one (figure 10).
**~~Figure 10. “Gods in Action (1)” (Khalid Shatta, 2021).~~**
**Shatta:** It is from a series called *Gods in Action*. So, *Gods in
Action* was inspired by a specific ocean. Solomon Islands and those
people. The way they portray their gods is a very scary way. And even
when they welcome someone, it is scary. For me, I find it very
interesting how people live by the ocean. The way they are creating
their gods. For me, if you live near the ocean you need to have a god
that can scare the huge waves of the water. I don't know. I'm just
trying to think through it. So, I call it *God's in Action* because
let's imagine how God moves things. Many of us have the image of God,
but where is the action?
**Boozer:** He looks like a very active God here.
**~~Figure 11. “Gods in Action (2)” (Khalid Shatta, 2021).~~**
**Shatta:** Yes, he's moving! This one is the Nile (figure 11). In
Africa in general we like to organize by family and by sticking
together. Sometimes I feel, in Sudan in general, we have connections
with nature in a spiritual way. Because we are always symbolizing
things. People portray themselves like the snake, the lion, whatever.
Maybe the point is to study the movement of these animals and to portray
themselves as like these creatures. And also, the fish. The fish is my
favorite sign. I enjoy using it in my art. And in Sudan, in the Nuba
Mountains, they draw alligators, elephants, and fish in the caves.
Because, as we said before, there is a lot of knowledge that we
inherited through our ancestors. It came through the blood. It needs our
body to relax to receive that knowledge again.
So, I feel like maybe if the wars end in Sudan it's possible to bring
back again a lot of things, a lot of knowledge that we didn't understand
as of now. This knowledge needs caring from the government to move
forward. But, for me, I'm just saving my questions so sometimes my art
is just a question for the future of how to use it in Sudan. Because
sometimes I feel Sudan is just an empty place. We have to build it from
scratch. And I use art sometimes as the missing home. Because here I
live really good. I enjoy life. But sometimes I get this feeling of
"ahhh, I came from Sudan." I remember. And I feel sad and I feel like,
wow, I have to do that in Sudan. Because I feel what we are missing.
What we are missing in Sudan, we are missing the foundation. This is an
illustration showing question (figure 12). I love the human expression.
The eyes. I paint a lot of eyes.
**~~Figure 12. “Gods in Action (3)” (Khalid Shatta, 2023).~~**
**Boozer:** This one has so many eyes and faces. It looks like there are
many perspectives on the question.
**Shatta:** Yeah.
**Boozer:** Thank you so much for going through these with me.
**Shatta:** You're welcome. There are also many new ones.
**Boozer:** How has living abroad shaped your perspective of homelife in
Sudan?
**Shatta:** I think living in Norway, it's a balance of understanding
myself, understanding my country, understanding Norway. Because, in a
way, sometimes I feel I am missing something in Sudan. But me being here
it makes it easier to observe. I become more like a watcher. I can see
my tree, my journey in Sudan. I can see how I landed here. And there are
many things in Sudan that I couldn't understand because of many things.
Because of the basic needs, because of the war, because of the family.
Every time I understand something that I used to struggle to understand.
But also understanding that side of trauma and the struggle with the new
world to settle in a new place. In a way it gives me rest to understand
Sudan. But also, some years ago it all clashed together and I lost
myself. You understand?
**Boozer:** Yes.
**Shatta:** Deep trauma, depression, stress, and anxiety and on top of
that what's going on. Boom. It was really -- wow. And now I'm just
saying it's a good experience. *Yanni*,[^1] I love the journey! Because
also Norway, it's a place that makes me able to understand myself right
now. And also, in my art journey because I made all those arts here. To
make art is not an easy thing if you live in fear.
**Boozer:** You need mental space in order to create.
**Shatta:** Yes. For me, because of the space I manage to paint and to
get inspired. Norway is good for my artistic journey. Also, it is really
a good starting to know people to understand another part of the world
and also to understand how we are different and how even our problems
are totally different. And how our sadness could be the same volume and
the same meaning as the pain of the war. People here die of depression.
They die of suicide. They die with a lot of things -- with the drugs or
whatever. The people in Sudan, they die of starving, with the war, or
with the gangs. But at the end of the day, they are both lost in
themselves. They are dying. They do not exist anymore. So, I mean all
suffering is a war in itself. Also, it's a good understanding for me.
Because I can understand. Because many people if they live in a poor
situation, they think life is like that. They think they are the only
people who are suffering. But then you go out and there are other
people.
**Boozer:** You can get a broader perspective.
**Shatta:** Yes. I am happy to experience that. Not only to live and to
listen, but I am part of this system too. There are things you can't
learn through reading. You have to live it. This is what I can say.
**Boozer:** What impact do you hope your art has on others?
**Shatta:** Because I paint from my soul, I believe in that. I don't
know. I believe in my feelings. There are some things, even for me I do
not understand, but I can see it in the way I love my art and the way
other people love my art.
**Boozer:** You just want for them to enjoy it and get what they want
from it. Is that right?
**Shatta:** No, it's not only like that. I really love my art. For me, I
need it, I feel the beauty of it. And when people see that too, I see it
more and I appreciate that. Wow. It means a lot to me. I attract someone
through my art.
**Boozer:** That it's having an impact, someone's finding meaning in it,
and making a connection with you? That it helps you see your art in a
new way?
**Shatta:** Yes. And that's beautiful. Wow. What I'm trying to say is,
yeah, I appreciate that. Art, it comes from the soul. It is the language
of the heart, so when people like my art it makes me feel I am honest
when I am painting and when I am drawing. And also, it connects me. For
instance, my art is like research. When I start a painting, I start to
search. I like to go deep, and deep, and deep. And even it connects me,
especially the project I'm working on now which is about history, about
humans, about Sudan, Nubia, about many things. But also, wow, it's a
sign of how those people find me and my art. Why me? That's why I'm
saying I believe in this art.
**Boozer:** How do you see art contributing to a feeling of home among
the people who have been displaced due to the current war? Does art have
a place in giving people a feeling of home?
**Shatta:** I know we have war in Sudan. But I can't speak for any
artist, but in a way, it needs time to observe. You can always paint.
You know this painting? This is the first painting I made just about
Sudan (figure 13) after I went to Cairo after one year. I campaigned
about war, I campaigned about war, but I didn't feel it. You see? But
me, in Cairo, I couldn't ignore it. That's why I made this painting.
Because of what is going on in Sudan. It makes me have to try to
understand the whole things, how we came to this war, just to attack. To
attack what is going on. Because for me, what comes out, it is part of
the solution. You see now, this is part of the solution. And it is part
of the problem. It's a lot of things. It's the politics. Its many
things. But at the same time, art is the witness of the time. From
person to person, it is different. But I don't feel I can speak about
this question in Sudan, but still I paint. I paint. I painted this
painting because this is how I see the pain of war. But also, in a way,
I guess I need to be careful also to use the art in a good way. Because
now we are in a war, I am worried about Sudan...but I am not there yet.
I prefer just to let it come naturally. This painting is about Sudan.
And maybe critiquing the homescape because for people this is how they
are feeling.
**~~Figure 13. “15th April Panic – Battle of Khartoum 2023” (Khalid Shatta, 2024).~~**
**Boozer:** Their disconnect and the swarm of thoughts about war no
matter where they are.
**Shatta:** Yes.
**Boozer:** Are there any new mediums or projects you'd like to explore?
**Shatta:** Yeah, actually, last month, I was in Portugal. I went for a
community called "Sacred Activism." I think now I'm looking to get in
more communities. So, I need just to spend a lot of time with many
indigenous communities. Because, one day I want to do this in Sudan. I
felt this was something I really needed. I feel very connected with
that. To be with a community. To be more spiritual with people. Tamira,
it is a place in Portugal. The founder is German. Now they are just
creating space. Most of the people are from Israel, the United States,
Germany, from Portugal, from Brazil. They create space just to grieve,
to express themselves in art and rituals and love and sexuality and
power. It's a lot of things. So, this is what I'm exploring.
**Boozer:** You're always exploring.
**Shatta:** Yes.
[^1]: *Yanni* is a filler used in spoken Arabic equivalent to "like" or
